Sunday, September 26, 2010

Dr. Wagner Jr./Perro Aguayo Jr. HOF Discussion

Copy & paste from the WON message board. Not sure why I posted it there since as noted by cubsfan - nobody who cared would have been able to find it. Although I'm not sure posting it here is any better. *L* Either way... I wrote this in response to seeing the HOF results and then listening to a WON radio episode where Bryan or Dave (I forget which) said they were surprised Perrito didn't finish higher and called him a "good worker". This is really just a quick off the top of my head response to both Perrito and Wagner's credentials for being in the HOF. I can certainly go more in-depth next year if need be.


Two guys I want to quickly address are Perro Aguayo Jr. and Dr. Wagner Jr....

1. Was he ever regarded as the best draw in the world? Was he ever regarded as the best draw in his country or his promotion?
2. Was he an international draw, national draw and/or regional draw?
3. How many years did he have as a top draw?

WAGNER: He was never a top guy in the UWA. He just bounced around the cards from top to bottom but was never counted on to draw. When he left for CMLL he was immediatly put into a trio as the new White Wave to capitalize on the success his father had with the original group. They were just a midcard act and nothing more. Wagner was eventually moved out and got to main event but once again was never a draw. He began to take off only in mid-1998 after his beyond successful BOSJ tour in New Japan. The coverage of that in Mexico made him into a "defender of Mexico" so to speak and also elevated him to #1 worker status in Mexico. But still he wasn't drawing. He became a draw on his own only in 2004 and that was due to the death of his father. The crowd refused to boo him so he turned tecnico and that's when Wagnermania (egomania) kicked in. He drew everywhere he went including for the two big companies at various points. If not for Mistico coming along and getting hot right around the same time Wagner turned face, Wagner definitely would have been the top drawing card in the country.

PERRITO: I would argue he was never a top drawing card. In AAA he was one of many on top of the card and comprised the big four w/ Latin Lover, Heavy Metal and Hector Garza from 2000 - 2003. AAA always drew well for the big shows but that was due to the company, not any single wrestler. This is clearly evidenced when you run through main events like La Parka vs Gigante Drako, Vipers vs Vatos Locos and Antonio Pena vs Cibernetico. Fans didn't specifically pay to see those matches - they paid for to see an AAA megashow. When Perrito left for CMLL he still wasn't a big deal. He headlined a major show or two with his dad vs the Dinamitas which got him hot but he exploded when Mistico was exploding. He was never able to prove he was a draw on his own without Mistico (or Santo Jr.) opposing him. The recent Perros Del Mal promotion only hurts his status as a draw since they rarely played to full houses and even had tiny crowds when running tiny buildings.

4. Was he ever regarded as the best worker in the world? Was he ever regarded as the best worker in his country or in his promotion?
5. Was he ever the best worker in his class (sex or weight)? Was he ever one of the top workers in his class?

WAGNER: Pre-NJPW BOSJ tour in 1998 he was always considered a solid guy but not the top wrestler in Mexico. After almost winning the tournament everyone's opinion changed and he became what everyone strived to be as a wrestler inside the ring. To this day a large percentage of fans and workers themselves consider Wagner to be the best in all of Mexico.

PERRITO: No. He's charasmatic but his matches since mid-2005 have always been smoke and mirrors. There's a myth floating around that he's a good worker but he's never shown it. Nobody can name 5 great matches in his career and if someone does I can guarantee it's against wrestlers that carried him (two that come to mind are the Santo match from 2004 & Universo 2000 match from the same year).

6. How many years did he have as a top worker?

WAGNER: Still considered one of the best after 12 years.


7. Was he a good worker before his prime? Was he a good worker after his prime?

WAGNER: Like I said... he was just a regular guy until he broke out thanks to that BOSJ tournament. After that he kicked it into high gear and can still go these days although he saves up his best performances for the big matches. If you catch him on a house show or anything that isn't a major TV taping you'll be lucky to see him even step foot into the ring for the first 25 minutes of the match.

PERRITO: Showed lots of potential as a youngster (started really young... 16 years old) but wasn't in an environment to develop his skills feuding with Cobarde, Picudo and Sangre Chicana in AAA. His "prime" would probably have been 2004ish and he's been all downhill since.

8. Did he have a large body of excellent matches? Did he have a excellent matches against a variety of opponents?

WAGNER: Has had many excellent matches vs wrestlers like Atlantis, Lyger, Kanemoto, Ultimo Guerrero, Mistico & Emilio Charles Jr. to name a few.

PERRITO: Doesn't have even a small body of excellent matches.

9. Did he ever anchor his promotion(s)?

WAGNER: Was never a main part of the UWA. Had various main event runs from 1998 - 2004 as a rudo in CMLL but I don't think he could ever be called the anchor of the company in that time period. There were moments from 2005 - 2008 where he along with Mistico and Perrito were the top CMLL guys but the other two had more success on their own while Wagner was never able to prove if they left he could sustain the company by himself.

PERRITO: He was one of many in AAA until he left. Out of the many I'd still rank him behind Latin Lover, Cibernetico, Parka Jr. and Heavy Metal. In CMLL they always counted on him when Mistico went down due to injury but really that just covers 2005-2008 and Perrito was even injured a lot during that time period. Obviously he anchors Perros Del Mal but they've been a monumental failure.

10. Was he effective when pushed at the top of cards?

WAGNER: Yes. The fans bought him as the best native wrestler around and he played both tecnico and rudo roles to perfection while on top.

PERRITO: As a tecnico in AAA he was fine but didn't stand out over the other guys. As a rudo in CMLL he was very effective due to his charisma and great promos.

11. Was he valuable to his promotion before his prime? Was he still valuable to his promotion after his prime?

WAGNER: Before his prime... not a chance. Nobody would have blinked if he had dropped off the face of the earth. After his prime... it's sort of a split opinion. Lots of people think CMLL really needs a guy like him back while others claim his value is beyond overrated since he'll never do a stip match or allow himself to be booked in any program where he might look weak or equal to anyone.

PERRITO: I'd say he was definitely valuable both before and after his prime (2004). AAA always had him in important roles and CMLL clearly suffered a huge loss when he left b/c they had no other rudos that could fill his shoes. To this day they still don't have a top rudo that had Perrito's charisma.

12. Did he have an impact on a number of strong promotional runs?

WAGNER: Not really. Closest would be CMLL from 2004-2008 but I'd say Mistico/Perrito had more to do with that than Wagner.

PERRITO: Definitely with CMLL from 2004-2008.

13. Was he involved in a number of memorable rivalries, feuds or storylines?

WAGNER: Has had a long feud with both Atlantis and Canek. The problem is they never lead anywhere due to Wagner refusing to lose his mask (in Atlantis' case) or Canek backing out of losing his. So while the rivalries/feuds are memorable... the fans have yet to get a finish to them and probably will never be able to.

PERRITO: The Perros vs Dinamitas stuff was classic even though Perro Sr. was largely immobile by that point. Mistico vs Perrito is still looked at as THE FEUD of the 2000-2010 decade. Had they had their mask/hair match in 2007 or 2008 it would have been legendary. The feud with Santo Jr. which spanned 2004-2006 is also a favorite of many.

14. Was he effective working on the mic, working storylines or working angles?

WAGNER & PERRITO: Yes to both. Both had incredible mic skills which is a rarity in Mexico (or used to be). Fans always took everything both guys did seriously because they respected them.

15. Did he play his role(s) effectively during his career?

WAGNER: I would say yes but lots of times Wagner was being booked as a rudo and would purposely go out to get cheers and win over the fans. It didn't help his tecnico opponents much.

PERRITO: Definitely. As a young rookie he was fantastic playing the underdog and coming back after being beat up badly. When he first got to play a tweener in AAA he was great right away. His best work was clearly as a full rudo in CMLL where he combined being a chickenshit heel/ass kicking rudo perfectly.

16. What titles and tournaments did he win? What was the importance of the reigns?

WAGNER: Holder of many titles throughout his career in many weight classes. Most important would probably be the UWA Heavyweight Title which was still treated with importance when he won it from Canek (who basically OWNED the title up until that point). Also even though he didn't win the tournament, the NJPW BOSJ '98 runner-up finish was a huge turning point for him.

PERRITO: Won various misc tag/trios titles throughout his career but was never really a title guy. Had feud with non-champs for the most part.

17. Did he win many honors and awards?

Dr. Wagner Jr.: Always won year-end honors for being the best rudo or best technical wrestler. Was voted 2002 wrestler of the year which is the highest honor for a wrestler in Mexico. Again in 2008 (ending Mistico's 3 year win streak).

Perro Aguayo Jr.: Was the 2004 wrestler of the year.

(For comparisons sake - Rey Misterio Jr. won in 1995.)

18. Did he get mainstream exposure due to his wrestling fame? Did he get a heavily featured by the wrestling media?


PERRITO: Due to the boom from 2004-2008 was able to become a pretty big star outside of wrestling. Participated on some reality shows and became a 'celebrity' instead of just a 'wrestling celebrity'.

19. Was he a top tag team wrestler?

WAGNER: Formed an excellent trio with Hijo Del Gladiador and Gran Markus Jr. but that was before his career really took off.


20. Was he innovative?

WAGNER: Popularized the 'Wagner Driver' (Michinoku Driver) throughout Mexico. Still treated as a deadly move to this day.


21. Was he influential?

WAGNER: Definitely. Especially to an entire new generation of wrestlers who are just popping up. This is evidenced in any bios of new wrestlers you read in magazines where I'd say 90% of them say they idolize Wagner or Misterio.

PERRITO: Time will still tell with Perrito.

22. Did he make the people and workers around him better?

WAGNER: If he was motivated enough then definitely. But he wasn't always motivated and especially in the latter half of this decade has taken a more selfish approach in his matches where his #1 goal is to get himself over and everyone else is just used as his own personal prop.


23. Did he do what was best for the promotion? Did he show a commitment to wrestling?

WAGNER: Up until 2006 the answer would be yes. But after that he clearly let his ego run wild. The facts are the facts... what other wrestler as big as Wagner has never had a major stip match? He's unprofessional when it comes time to do some real business.

PERRITO: Definitely not. Refused to drop his hair on many occasions. One really famous incident was back in 2005 where he promised to drop his hair to Universo 2000 (who was sent to avenge his brothers) but backed out only a week or two before the show and Universo had to be the professional and agree to lose knowing he'd never get the win back. The heat between the Aguayos and Dinamitas still exists to this day due to this incident. Also kept holding out and refusing to do the inevitable hair loss to Mistico. Got injured doing a reality show which put CMLL in a big hole. Left CMLL to form his own group. Definitely a me-first individual.

24. Is there any reason to believe that he was better or worse than he appeared?

WAGNER: Not really.

PERRITO: Many people still think he's a good worker which is one of the greatest cons in wrestling history.:) He was really exposed early on when he jumped to CMLL because he wasn't good enough to do the style they were doing. It was in 2005 when the style changed dramatically that he started to fit in. Shorter matches, more showboating than wrestling and cheap finishes... it was all right up his alley. He's taken it to an extreme these days and it isn't rare to see him do nothing for an entire match until it comes time for a low blow finish. If he ever got stuck in the ring against someone that wanted to embarass him... he'd be in trouble.

Wagner Jr. is definitely a strong candidate in my book.

Perrito is an easy no.

Labels: , , , , ,


Post a Comment

<< Home